On social class, the fun is in Emma's unprincipled switching... One moment she's all "Regency Convention" Harriet is Robert M's social superior. But immediately it suits her to be all "Tom Paine" Harriet's illegitimacy is irrelevant. And later it will even be a bonus as Harriet can be assumed the love child of some nobleman. Given the stigma (then and surprisingly recently) of being born outside marriage Austen's play with the idea is pretty radical.
Great account PJ, thanks. How much of it all does Anja Taylor Joy convey with her eyebrows? I'll need to watch again.
Thank you, Ronald! Yes, radical is the word - I'd love to hear more discussion about the boldness of some of Austen's treatments of social stigmas.
And yes I think the film is definitely worth a re-watch. Probably Anja Taylor-Joy's eyebrows are their own character. Maybe we can get John here at PCF to organize a Group Watch! 😊🌻
This fight always made me want it to be over quickly, but rereading it this time, I was struck by Emma's acceptance of Harriet's illegitimacy. I am currently reading Anthony Trollope's 'Doctor Thorne' to my mother, written over four decades after 'Emma', and one of the main themes in the book is the stigma of illegitimacy and the impact such an origin had on a person's social standing and ability to marry. Trollope has his characters use more euphemistic language about illegitimacy than Austen does. I wonder if the Regency era was actually more open about illegitimacy - perhaps due to the scandalous lifestyles, and consequent illegitimate offspring, of several members of the royal family at the time - than was the Victorian era.
Yes, what a fascinating observation, and how much fun to be group-reading with your mother! Like you, I find this difference in attitudes to sexual conduct in the Regency/Georgian era and in the Victorian era a fascinating topic. My very general sense (scholars, and Prof. Halbrooks please weigh in!) is yes just like you said - that the Rakishiness of the Georgian era, which impacted the highest levels of power most visibly in the Rake-in-Chief Prince Regent himself, very much put off Victoria and Albert, and also the general population. It weakened the power base, which were the elite families, but also weakened individual homes (something Austen, and also Mary Shelley and her mum Mary Wollstonecraft are addressing in their works already back in the Regency era). My sense is that for the Victorians this was not just prudishness but was a reaction to the privilege that allowed the profligacy, if you will. Victoria and Albert were affected by this kind of inconstancy and immorality in their personal lives and families, and could see the vulnerability it brought to governing (then and today, lol). So this is a huge simplification, but yes I believe the Victorians were reacting to the Privilege and the Profligacy of the Regency Rakes. (There is an entire book here for someone - maybe it already exists, and if so I would definitely read it!) Scholars also refer to the "Victorianization" of Jane Austen herself - this was the attempt of the Victorians, and also Austen's Victorian relatives, to shape her stories to the chastity and constancy that Victorians idealized. Of course Austen was doing a much larger, philosophical project - but the Victorianization of her works gave them life for that era and fueled them through the generations.
Hope that helps the discussion - how fun to be reading Trollope with your mother. Enjoy the read and thank you for taking the time to weigh in with this interesting discussion here!
Thank you for that, and yes, I can see Victoria reacting to her uncles' lives in her own standards. Trollope is the latest of many classic authors I have read to my mother over the years - I first started reading to her because she would never take the time to sit down and read, so at least I could make the housework she insisted on doing more interesting by being her 'audiobook' and now, although she has finally slowed down, her eyesight is failing, so I continue to read to her. I have read several of Austen's novels to my mother - P&P, 'Persuasion', S&S, and 'Northanger Abbey', but not 'Emma', because that was the only Austen novel my mother ever read herself and she could not stand Emma's character.
Love that - the world needs wonderful daughters like you. And being an Austen lover your mother must be wonderful too (we understand the aversion to Emma, though it's my personal favorite 😊). Happy reading.
On social class, the fun is in Emma's unprincipled switching... One moment she's all "Regency Convention" Harriet is Robert M's social superior. But immediately it suits her to be all "Tom Paine" Harriet's illegitimacy is irrelevant. And later it will even be a bonus as Harriet can be assumed the love child of some nobleman. Given the stigma (then and surprisingly recently) of being born outside marriage Austen's play with the idea is pretty radical.
Great account PJ, thanks. How much of it all does Anja Taylor Joy convey with her eyebrows? I'll need to watch again.
Thank you, Ronald! Yes, radical is the word - I'd love to hear more discussion about the boldness of some of Austen's treatments of social stigmas.
And yes I think the film is definitely worth a re-watch. Probably Anja Taylor-Joy's eyebrows are their own character. Maybe we can get John here at PCF to organize a Group Watch! 😊🌻
"Plain Jane" like you is grand.
Thank you, Mary! YOU're grand! 🌷
Thanks for this! I always found that scene agonizing to read, but this discussion of it is wonderfully enjoyable.
Thank you - so glad you enjoyed it! Yes, cringey to read but fun to talk about from a safe distance. 😊
Thank you for this delightful step by step analysis of the argument. You clarify and illuminate so many points I had previously missed.
So glad you enjoyed this - thank you for taking the time to comment! 🙏🌻
This fight always made me want it to be over quickly, but rereading it this time, I was struck by Emma's acceptance of Harriet's illegitimacy. I am currently reading Anthony Trollope's 'Doctor Thorne' to my mother, written over four decades after 'Emma', and one of the main themes in the book is the stigma of illegitimacy and the impact such an origin had on a person's social standing and ability to marry. Trollope has his characters use more euphemistic language about illegitimacy than Austen does. I wonder if the Regency era was actually more open about illegitimacy - perhaps due to the scandalous lifestyles, and consequent illegitimate offspring, of several members of the royal family at the time - than was the Victorian era.
Yes, what a fascinating observation, and how much fun to be group-reading with your mother! Like you, I find this difference in attitudes to sexual conduct in the Regency/Georgian era and in the Victorian era a fascinating topic. My very general sense (scholars, and Prof. Halbrooks please weigh in!) is yes just like you said - that the Rakishiness of the Georgian era, which impacted the highest levels of power most visibly in the Rake-in-Chief Prince Regent himself, very much put off Victoria and Albert, and also the general population. It weakened the power base, which were the elite families, but also weakened individual homes (something Austen, and also Mary Shelley and her mum Mary Wollstonecraft are addressing in their works already back in the Regency era). My sense is that for the Victorians this was not just prudishness but was a reaction to the privilege that allowed the profligacy, if you will. Victoria and Albert were affected by this kind of inconstancy and immorality in their personal lives and families, and could see the vulnerability it brought to governing (then and today, lol). So this is a huge simplification, but yes I believe the Victorians were reacting to the Privilege and the Profligacy of the Regency Rakes. (There is an entire book here for someone - maybe it already exists, and if so I would definitely read it!) Scholars also refer to the "Victorianization" of Jane Austen herself - this was the attempt of the Victorians, and also Austen's Victorian relatives, to shape her stories to the chastity and constancy that Victorians idealized. Of course Austen was doing a much larger, philosophical project - but the Victorianization of her works gave them life for that era and fueled them through the generations.
Hope that helps the discussion - how fun to be reading Trollope with your mother. Enjoy the read and thank you for taking the time to weigh in with this interesting discussion here!
Thank you for that, and yes, I can see Victoria reacting to her uncles' lives in her own standards. Trollope is the latest of many classic authors I have read to my mother over the years - I first started reading to her because she would never take the time to sit down and read, so at least I could make the housework she insisted on doing more interesting by being her 'audiobook' and now, although she has finally slowed down, her eyesight is failing, so I continue to read to her. I have read several of Austen's novels to my mother - P&P, 'Persuasion', S&S, and 'Northanger Abbey', but not 'Emma', because that was the only Austen novel my mother ever read herself and she could not stand Emma's character.
Love that - the world needs wonderful daughters like you. And being an Austen lover your mother must be wonderful too (we understand the aversion to Emma, though it's my personal favorite 😊). Happy reading.